Heh, funny I have something to comment on this conversation.

I'm surprized you didn't mention any of the specs Taylor or else you would have posted your ideas differently, or not at all. ;)

Relatively recently Sony release the Hi-MD to replace the NetMD. The new MDs are 1GB in size and can potentially hold 45hrs of music, depending on the level of compression you choose (and if you do use compression, the ATRAC3plus codec has been improved over ATRAC3 so you can have more music byte for byte). Alternatively, you can record in uncompressed PCM audio. The Hi-MDs also work as external USB drives as well, only question is can they be set to play music and transfer data at the same time (probably yes.) As for discs, a single disc costs 11$ and cheaper if you get them bundled. Battery life with the Hi-MDs is aproximately 25+ hours with a single alkaline (more if you use Ni-MH, with my NetMD I get 50+hrs on a single one.)

As for makers of MiniDisc players, Kenwood and Panasonic also make players but I have only seen a small handfull of them (and as far as I know, aren't available in North America) so effectively Sony's pretty much the only source.

And as far as listening to others' music collections, if I want to listen to the music you're listening to with MDs you just pop out the disc, hand it over and be on your way, something I have done on many occasions. With iPods (as far as I understand) there is no direct transfer from one to the other (this is possible with MDs, but must be done in real time ie. second for second so that doesn't provide much of an advantage) and I don't think too many people would be willing to trade a couple hundred dollar iPod to someone so they can listen to your music, I'd rather go for the $4 (for std MDs) option. As for transfering songs from computer iPods are limited to computers that have iTunes already installed. Hi-MDs/NetMDs also require computers have SonicStage installed, but can record using analogue/optical input as well.

The Hi-MD has made a potential iPod killer, but Sony has done very little do market the MD in general. The technology's been around since the early 90s and only recently has gained some popularity of a sort in North America (in Japan MDs are pretty much king over there)

Hi-MD
Pros: removeable data medium, direct recording in multiple formats (computer, analogue, optical), battery life (25+hrs), decent cost ($250-$600 CDN), can act as an external drive, upgradeable firmware, reverse compatability with NetMD, weight 3-4 oz, remote control standard on all players except one low end model, can use any "AA" battery as power source, preloads songs (aprox 6 minutes, good for battery, bad for shock resistance)
Cons: small disc capacity, very poor marketing, USB 1.1 transfer, requires external software, no additional features, small consumer base (I personally don't see that many more iPods than MD players actually), small display

iPod
Pros: large disc capacity, excellent marketing, USB 2.0/Firewire transfer, various PDA/daytimer functions, weight 6 oz, standard backlit display, large and easily viewable interface, can act as an external drive, fast battery charge, preloads songs (aprox 25 minutes, bad for battery, good for shock resistance), wide consumer appeal
Cons: expensive built-in battery, Cost ($430-$560 CDN), requires external software, can record only through additional microphone ($50 CDN), battery life (max 12hrs), can only use built-in battery

In my opinion, the major advantages of the Hi-MD are the battery "universality", recording ability (definitely comes in handy when u want to sleep through a lecture), portable drive ability, removable (and exchangeable) discs and cost. The biggest disadvantage would be the capacity of the discs themselves. Advantages for the iPod are large disc capacities, easy interface/display, portable drive ability. Major disadvantages would be the relatively high cost and the dependence on the short life built-in battery.

I once considered getting an iPod, but decided to buy a NetMD some time ago so I'm a bias towards the MD, but I believe that in the long run the MD is a better investment overall.

Also, did you guys notice how much superior the japanese site for the new MD is? I think that just proves my point. Since MDs have the majority market in japan over iPods (thanks to the fact that they actually MARKETED MDs there before the iPod came out), advertising it will make a difference over there. However, since they missed the boat on the overseas markets and since the iPod has instead won over the consumer majority, any marketing campaigns here are just a pointless pursuit.

I think this is a prime example of how effective advertising can really be. I actually find it to be quite an interesting sociological and psychological case study.

Yes Paras, as you suspected: you're wrong. Sony holds no monopoly on the production of minidiscs. In fact, they hold no monopoly on the production of minidisc players or recorders either. The first MiniDisc player I bought wasn't even a Sony, and Aiwa used to make the best ones until Sony bought the company out. In fact, I prefer JVCs minidiscs over Sony's because they're cheaper and they hold 80 minutes as opposed to 74 (on the current ATRAC format with the least compression. I actually get about 3.5 hours of time on the slightly more compressed ATRAC 2 which is of very comparable fidelity).

Paras, I thought about the bluetooth thing too. I came to the idea while thinking "what if the Nintendo DS and the minidisc were combined???". That would be fuckin amazing. However, the RIAA would never allow it to happen. EVER. But for mix tapes... who says you'd have to fill the whole thing? At five bucks a disc they're almost dispensable. Just trade discs with your buddy and neither of you have lost anything. Hell, you could put entire applications on them and when your friend's done with it, return it to you and you could use it again and again. Think floppy discs but WAAAAAY better.

Eric- I think your argument is totally flawed. How many "joe blow wish-they-could-be-DJs" out there are gonna buy an MPC? Are you fuckin kidding me? Even IF they could afford it, they wouldn't have the time or patience to figure it out. Hell, I have a hard enough time operating one. And sure, maybe it would raise some eyebrows but why would the included software have to sample from field recordings either? Why couldn't it sample from their music collection? Technically, giving it that ability isn't illegal. If the end-user produces something illegal, that's there problem. It'd be a nice fuck you the RIAA too. How you gonna stop it? You can't.

You also said:

"DJs do more than just simply sample their source- they edit, cut, pitch shift and all sorts of other production on their samples".

I know that. That's exactly what that bundled software would do. Think how popular that program Fruity Loops is. It's the fuckin shittiest production program out there, and yet every wanna-be DJ out there uses it because it's idiot-proof. For the most part, the program makes the music, not the individual. Fuck- that waitress we had from LA at Red Robin uses Fruity Loops... you think SHE really knows anything about music? Granted I could be wrong, but I highly doubt she does. Hell, there are kontact plugins that cut apart samples and randomly re-arrange them into glitch beats for you (no work required); and those plugins are made by one guy as a hobby in his spare time! It would be relatively simple to throw together something like that. And if you gave it a frequency analyzer it could extract samples of certain base frequencies and randomly piece together harmonies and melodies for you. "Hip" glitch heaven for the layman!!! Everybody can be a shittier Prefuse 73! Woo! And now this only furthers mix-tape concept because EVERYBODY would want to trade their mixes with each other to show off how "amazing" they are! You can't just hit up kazaa/soulseek/limewire and download your buddy's beats. It ain't gonna come up.

Tom: if sony's trying to capture the mass market, why don't they market their MDs? There was never any real ad campaign to push it... even BEFORE the iPod came out. Also, I think it's funny you say 40GB on an iPod is too much. For me, I have the opposite complaint with the iPod; it wouldn't be enough. I could never fit my entire collection on that. I'd need closer to 60 or 80 gigs. And once all that space is filled up, I don't wanna hafta start deleting shit to add new tracks. I just wanna pop in a new blank disc; and that's a feature that the MD has that the iPod does not. Also, how can you say there will never be an iPod killer? I can guarantee you in 20 years, there will be no iPods. No technological format ever lasts that long. Hell, in 20 years there won't even be MDs. We'll have fuckin' computer chips in our brain that make music off our thoughts or some shit like that. Well, maybe not THAT. But you know what I mean. The question is, how long will it take to overthrow the iPod and WHO's going to do it? Admittedly, I don't think the MD will overthrow it, and I don't think anyone WILL overthrow it for at LEAST another 4 or 5 years.

And why won't that happen? I'll tell you why:

Even though I believe all my arguments are sound, true and justified, there are 3 reasons this won't happen:

1. The iPod has already captured a majority market of those looking to buy portable music players. Any psychologist can tell you that once somebody has invested in something, then tend to believe it was worth their time and effort and money... even if it wasn't. You can tell an iPod owner all you want that an MD is better... but they just dropped $400 on that unit and they'll never admit it to themselves much less you that you're right. An iPod owner would not readily betray their affiliation for something only slightly superior.

2. Sony inexplicably has not marketed their MDs outside of Japan. I don't know why. But judging from their past history I doubt they'll market this new format either. It would take a lot of time and money to rival Apple's marketing anyway. It's just a lot of work. I suspect they realize what I just wrote in point number 1... and so any advertising on their part is just preaching to the choir. It will only convince anti-iPod enthusiasts to buy their alternative. And since MDs are the only REAL viable alternative to the iPod (and those other iPod-similar devices), those people will probably buy and MD whether or not Sony has marketed it to them.

3. The third reason is that the average consumer just doesn't care about the points I've made. I realize this and understand it. Right now thanks to the brilliant marketing strategies that Apple employed, the iPod is en vogue. EVERYBODY ELSE HAS ONE. The average person thinks to themselves "I don't wanna be the loser WITHOUT one!"... and I think that the ubiquitous and readily-recognizable white-corded earbuds have had a LOT to do with the current fashionability of iPods. The quality of their sound production makes no difference.


In conclusion, I think if Sony spent billions on advertising they could capture a good portion of the market... but it's a big IF, and it's almost not worth it to take the gamble. As such, even though I hope I'm wrong, I highly doubt that the this new MD format will be the iPod killer. But I DO 100% guarantee that once the iPod killer DOES come around, it will share some of the properties of MDs that the iPod lacks. I'd put good money on that.

could sony ever make an ipod killer? nah, not unless it actually resembled an ipod... the reason that theyre so freakin popular isnt a fluke, theyve identified what consumers want in a portable music player.... i agree with paras that the whole mix tape scenario wouldnt really be a selling point, except for maybe less than 5% of the music-listening public and believe me sony isnt looking to become a niche marketer.... there are companies that cater to the hardcore audiophile, but with the massive amount of resources and marketing power at sonys disposal they will always try to capture the mass market.... and speaking as someone on the opposite end of the audiophile spectrum (yes its true i cant tell the difference between a 128 mp3 and a cd) heres the point i would raise..... why would want to go to the trouble of actually borrowing ur friends mix tape when in 2 minutes u could just download half his entire freakin collection onto ur ipod... for the majority of the music listening public music is not a passion, just something to help the time pass when ure riding the bus or studying.... music is intensely personal, and people love having the ability to carry around with them at all times every single song theyve ever enjoyed to them they dont give a fuck about what their friends are listening to..... there is definitely a segment that is anti ipod for reasons that re beyond me, the thing i dont like about ipods is that theres just way too much fucking room i mean jesus christ do u really need to have 40 gigs of music at ur fingertips.... like it or not the ipod is the future of music, there will be no ipod killer only successors.... the pod people will only grow in number

Cassettes were a big deal because people could make "mix-tapes" to give to their friends. MDs could bring back that lost art. Trade MDs; listen to your friends mixes.

one point to note. the type of sampling you're talking about is straight "field recording" or recording your source, straight from a mic. most musicians involved in sampling, those mostly being Hip Hop DJs do more than just simply sample their source- they edit, cut, pitch shift and all sorts of other production on their samples to evade lawsuits. for this they just use samplers like the MPC at home, where their record collection is too. as good as the sound quality may be with recording off an MD, you'll never be able to provide the features of sound editing on the MD itself.
so i think the market for field recording is pretty small
i do however think Sony should focus on their removeable discs, especially if they're cheap. that's a damn handy thing to have. a single minidisc is definately less life threatening to lose than your whole iPod collection.

i do however agree that the iPod headphones suck, and that it's definately less cool seeing people walk around with white headphones this year than it was last year.

Yeah, the betamax/VHS debate is completely relevant.

I'm not sure when it happened, but at one point or another I became an amateur audiophile. I cringe when people listen to mp3s through their computer speakers. I cringe when I hear an mp3 that's sampled lower than 192kbps... and though it admittedly doesn't occur often, SOMETIMES I can hear audio artifacts in even 192kbps encoded files and it drives me nuts (I deleted the new Sparta album off my Hard Drive because even tho it was 192 I couldn't listen to it).

As such, I personally find it ridiculous that the most distinct feature of the iPod is its shitty headphones. Apple itself markets the white-cord earbuds as a fashion accessory. And now everywhere I go I see people wearing them. Now, I don't have any problem with them aesthetically... but they're GARBAGE.

But this is the thing: for the average consumer, they're perfectly fine. Most of them probably aren't even aware of the terrible audio quality they're receiving. It doesn't even matter to them. It's not the point. The point is that their entire shitty record collection is at their fingertips.

From my point of view I find it ridiculous that anyone would want to listen to shittily-encoded mp3s on shitty earphones. But I understand that my opinion is probably even more ridiculous from their point of view. I gotta lug around these huge headphones and I can't bring all of my music with me (then again, my collection wouldn't fit on an iPod either... but of course it comes significantly closer). So I argue "but I can also record live audio!", and they're like "who cares?". Well, I do. I could use the netMD capability and record mp3s straight to my minidisc player just as fast as you can upload mp3s to your iPod, but if I did that then the quality isn't much better than an iPod anyway. Instead, I record it by taking an analog feed of the mp3 coming out of my stereo amplifier which makes the it sound warmer and more natural. Of course this is a lot more work, and for me it's worth it. But for almost everyone else, it isn't really worth it at all.

If Sony was wise and wanted to come up with a real iPod killer, here's what they'd do:

1. Realize that in 2004, there are different selling-points than when the MD first came out. For example, size isn't a selling point anymore because ALL mp3 players and MDs are pretty much as small as they can get without sacrificing usability through things smaller buttons and tiny-ass LED displays.

2. As such, determine which factors are, or CAN potentially be used as selling-points. For example:

yo taylor, was this the shit you got fucked on?
http://www.latitude53.org/main/news/images/schmoozy2004.jpg

it's tonight. should be a gooder.

from my Soc classes the fall of Betamax has sorta been traced to two things:
1. Sony having a strangle hold over the propriatary rights over Betamax (like Mac and clonePCs)
2. VHS carried Pornographic titles, where Betamax did not.

(though there is an ongoing argument as to which was a more important factor, i think the second one was definately more important than the first)

There's some relevent reading on this topic, particularly: "The Usefulness of Everyday Things", and my HIST 115 Essay on Technopoly and Technological Determinism. YOW