Let's first make clear the fact that, indeed, this is just my way of making fun of Jess. Clearly my posting of a Doctor Who quote right after this article destroys my credibility in criticizing anyone's (for lack of a better word) geekdom.

That being said, while D&D may receive this treatment, of only being spotlighted from a negative view, it is not alone. Tony points to music, but this has been true, and will continue to be true, for most societies; something alien is popular among "youth" and feared by "adults" (of course, it's not strictly a generational thing, but that's beside the point.) Look no further than Jack Thompson to see where this is rearing its ugly head today. (Or, better yet, my good friends at the Parents Television Council.) There are certain parts of society that believe media and entertainment have a large influence on our behaviours, and will exploit media when it serves their interest (censorship, religious ideals, classifying soldiers, etc.)

I totally agree with you on the marginalization issue, I was just stating it in terms of the Israeli military and that of other nations.

As for the venomous public attitude to the game, I think this could also be attributed to the tide of moral conservatism that swept the US with the Reagan administration, and is being re-propagated by Dubya. To show an example using the music biz, check out Viral Video's archive of Frank Zappa on CNN's "Crossfire" in the '80s, and you'll see what I mean.

Well, the military, while certainly conformist, is hardly the only segment of the population who has this problem with D&D. While the stigma now is certainly about being a geek, in the 80s there was a whole moral panic about D&D - gateway to the occult, violence, ect. The link Paras put up to Jack Chick is pretty representative of the 80s take on D&D, only imagine that kind of rhetoric everywhere - mainstream newspapers, PTA meetings, tv newsreports, some academic journals; it was everywhere. People thought that D&D players were a physical threat to everyone and a moral threat to youth particularly.

But the argument about D&D simply being different, and therefore feared, could certainly apply to segments of the population outside the military as well.

Alright, here's my take on the scenario, as I see it:

First off, the military is the definition of conformity. Basically, if you aren't a certain type of person, you get singled out. If you've seen Full Metal Jacket, you'll know what I mean. This was even the case back in my cadet days, when I saw it happen to certain individuals at camp.

Basically, my argument is this: it's less because of any problems with detached reality perceptions ('cause there are military people with all sorts of delusions who don't play D&D), it's that it's outsider, it's weird to them and they don't understand it. And in the military, regardless of the nation, difference almost always leads to marginalization.

I don't think that page supports what you were saying at all Paras. After all, you were arguing that D&D players are the ultimate geeks while the Isreali army is arguing that their personalites are unstable, that they can't differentiate reality from fantasy, and that they are untrustworthy. These things seem a little different from geekdom, at least to me.

But I think the interesting question here is why are D&D players (either around-the-table types or LARPers (live action role players) assumed to be more unstable or bigger geeks than people who play computer games? The stories are often very similar and the mechanics of the game (ie-the mathematical formulas used to determine whether or not a character can do something successfully or how they become more competent and learn new skills) are often exactly the same. Knights of the Old Republic, just as an example, uses 3rd edition D&D rules *exactly*. So it's not the content of the games that is the problem, but the form. What is more threatening (in so much that it requires stigmatization in the form of 'instability' or 'geekdom') about people who play games using pencils and dice from those who use computer games? Actually you could argue that D&D players are more social (you require at least two people in the same room, interacting and negotiating rules), less technologically competent (yes the dice has 20 sides, but its still just a dice that must be rolled manually), and more imaginative (you have to come up with the options that your character could take, they aren't provided by a list of command words.)

Anyone?

All my friends from whyte knight turned out juuuuust fine.

I just figured that, if you're being quoted, it's nice to have an army backing you up. For the record, they aren't focussing simply on the live-action role-playing, but D&D in general. (Really, as I've said before, they should go after Warhammer, too, but who am I to set Israeli defense policy?) It's a very Jack Chick attitude, but, as anyone who knows me well knows, I take everything Jack Chick says to heart.

And while we're being nitpicky:

though I hardly doubt it shows a lack of intelligence or ability to separate the real world from that of fantasy

Al: Do you really believe God hates?
GHF protestor: Yes. I think it's one of his best qualities.

uh, Paras, I don't know if you're just doing this for the sake of picking on Jess, but there likely is a difference between this kind of play:

and this kind of play:

not that I particularly want to 'go there' but seriously, playing the game in the living room versus playing the game in a live action, "I'm going to club you with my sword" kind of way are two different things. (though I hardly doubt it shows a lack of intelligence or ability to separate the real world from that of fantasy.)

... at least I think they are two different things. If i'm getting something wrong, please let me know. I mean, really, if you all get to dress up and swing swords, I might want to join you! ;)

Something that seemed missing before...

1-up

Tay only if I'm applying to some assasin organization